Don’t be mistaken — the Amish are not adverse to forming and developing businesses; they are simply mindful of the consequences of doing so.  They are committed to living the message that they find tantamount to all: “Give everything away and follow Me” and “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” The land is Mine and you are but aliens and My tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land (derived Luke 6:38 and Lev. 25:23-24).

In the heart of Nappanee, Indiana are a string of shops and mills, some owned and operated by the local Amish residents; others employing the Amish.  Horse-drawn carriages and bicycles with oversized baskets are prevalent, especially en route to and from their businesses. And then there is the Amish home; a sanctuary for the well-structured family, devoid of items we all take for granted.  No mirrors, video recorders, iPhones, televisions, laptops, cell phones, or even electricity.  Once in a while, one might spot a gas-powered bailer or mower and telephone houses dot the downtown area – just in case someone is walking by and happens to hear the phone ringing.

Traveling past the typical home and farm compounds, the out-of-towner is quick to notice the absence of garden ornaments or even shutters lining the windows of each home.  If the item has no practical function, there is simply no need for it.

Garment-making and farming are typical activities, but usually practiced on a subsistence basis.  Many Amish operate side businesses such as small, intimate restaurants or sell such items as horseshoes, Belgium horses (the backbone of all major farming chores), bakery items, candles, homegrown fruits, manure-based fertilizer, quilts, hay, ceramic pots, hand-woven rugs, books, garments,    and harnesses.  They may engage in supplemental activities which include blade sharpening and small machine and bicycle repair.  These side businesses allow diversity in business and the extra income generated is necessary to keep the family – and the larger community - going.

One misgiving dispelled upon spending time here is the absence of an absolute hierarchy.  What is present is an interconnected community where the family plays center stage and where Jesus Christ is the sole focus of how they live their lives.  The community has adopted certain rules to conform their lifestyles.  These rules are not so much biblically dictated, but simply provide guidance in living “a more godly life.” Surprisingly, there is no proselytizing or intentional exclusion of outsiders.  The Amish of Central Indiana are regarded as one large family, divided into different districts, for better organization.

The Amish regards themselves as stewards of God’s earth; by their activities, they could be regarded as the original proponents of recycling, reusing, and reducing.  Everything has a use and a life span and nothing is wasted; socks are darned, humility is encouraged (no pictures or mirrors are permitted), all dress is similarly coordinated to age and gender, hair is cut at home, food is grown organically, and there is no need for cosmetics – all of these tenets of living aids the calm, humble life. Each home-farm compound has a windmill to help draw water for household and animal husbandry needs. There is no violence or need for guns, weapons, or locked doors. While travel is rare outside one’s district, on occasion, long-distance travel is necessary due to a funeral, a rare vacation, a wedding, or other event.  Since horse-driven carriages are not sufficient for this task, “Amish Haulers,” – or independent contractors – are employed.

With such minimal needs, what do the Amish produce?  Many make and sell furniture.  This dominant business is more than a way of generating income to pay the necessary bills, but is indeed an unsurpassed art where trees of all varieties are transformed into functional and beautiful – but not ostentatious – furnishings.  Furniture-making is accomplished with pride but without boastfulness … and with great attention to detail.  The raw materials are carefully selected and fully replenished. When trees are taken down, new samplings are planted to take their place.

For long-distance traveling and deliveries, Amish business owners hire non-Amish drivers. The price of the items is not artificially increased for the tourist; rather, the proprietor charges the same price uniformly, even to close friends and family.  Respect for all things translates into business dealings characterized by honesty in the sales transaction, a quality product, and good relations with all parties involved.

Surprisingly, women are an integral part of the family business and sometimes run smaller, craft or food-oriented businesses on their land. They often drive their own buggies —unaccompanied at times. And while they undoubtedly shoulder a substantial amount of the family’s daily chores, there is still an expectation, albeit not overly paternalistic, that the male children will eventually take over the family business. Fairness and honesty are emphasized in all aspects in life; there is no pursuit for an accumulation of wealth, just the goal to merely sustain the family and the larger community.

The typical family business is intergenerational, where the formal education level does not go beyond the eighth grade in either private or parochial schools. English is the language of business at least when it concerns communications with outside customers; however, a Pennsylvania/Dutch/Swiss/German dialect constitutes the exclusive language used at home and in worship. Despite the lack of a formal, post-middle school education, the Amish are very astute players in the business world.  Limited liability companies have been created and many owners are active members of the local Chambers of Commerce.  In the Nappanee district, there is an Amish bank.  Loans are usually not authorized to start a new business but rather to buy a new or first home.  Interest is charged.  There are no defaults or foreclosures; the Amish bank customers pay their debts and if someone has experienced a hardship, there are concerted community efforts to ensure a continuity of lifestyle. And while everyone knows everyone else, the Amish business person still keeps a pulse on the market and relies upon retailers who suggest the prices that are ultimately charged. 

The Interview

The following interview was conducted inside the HomeStyle Showroom Furniture Shoppe which is located on the outskirts of downtown Nappanee.  The business is owned by two brothers:  Glen and Lamar Schmucker.  The brothers have equipped their business with a telephone which has a voicemail message function – an unusual feature in a wholly-owned Amish business.  Although the brothers and their family members – like the rest of the district residents – have not pursued formal higher education, there is a relentless thirst for knowledge which does not suffer from the lack of a formal degree.  But self–teaching and community learning continues.  Manuals, textbooks, and pamphlets are relied upon to perform certain tasks. 

The Schmuckers have cultivated a connection with a nearby Purdue University extension which furnishes resources which explore the best herbicides and planting methods to use. While all able family members work in the home business — often 6 days a week — the Sabbath is kept holy and therefore, shops are closed on Sundays.

To the proprietors, everything is in order.  The furniture business appears to be surviving the present economical downturn, even though nearby Elkhart County boasts one of the highest employment rates in the country.  The business is a well-greased wheel — devoid of greed and self grandiose.  Essential pieces of machinery and new ideas are shared. If something is needed, it is borrowed. Surprisingly, there is little bartering, but rather reliance upon straight currency transactions.  

When queried about personal influences, Glen Schmucker states that the native American Indian is his hero as these people were the first to use nature’s resources wisely.  Spiritual, yes, but the difference between the two groups is Jesus Christ.  The members of this particular Amish community appear happy and content; they are aware of the world’s riches, but resist the temptation. 

Q: The Journal of Value- Based Leadership concentrates on input from three primary sources: government officials, business owners, and academicians. Most recently, most feedback has focused on the issues of clean energy, sustainability, and the environment, especially in light of the BP spill in the Gulf of Mexico. In my research of Amish and Mennonite groups residing in certain areas of Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, one conclusion bears recognition: it is these folks who are really what I term, “the original environmentalists.” It also appears that there are three predominant businesses in these Amish communities: furniture-making, agriculture, and garment production.  Would that be a correct assessment?

A lot of them make their own clothes but do not sell them.

Q: So is this mainly for subsistence living, for their own families?

Yes.

Q: And so, construction/furniture making, agriculture ,and garments are indeed the three predominant types of businesses?

Yes.

Q: With respect to the location of your furniture store here on the outskirts of Nappanee, Indiana, in the heart of “Amish Country", where do you and your family reside?

Just right behind the store.

Q: You have your own farm?

Yes.

Q: So you’re busy?

I’m very busy. Too busy.

Q: And Lamar, your older brother and business partner…

Younger. He just got married Friday, last night.

Q: How far does your family go back in this area?

Years and years. That farm was bought from the government originally. It was bought by someone from the Schmucker clan. I’m a Schmucker. It’s been in the family for about 8 to 10 generations.

Q: So if you trace your family tree, in terms of immigration, where would you start?

I’m not sure…probably Switzerland.

Q: There is a notion that certain communities – like the Amish – never leave, that is, when land has been in the family for generations, subsequent offspring, or the next generation, usually stay put.  Is that true in this area around Nappanee, Indiana?  Or are more adult children leaving the district?

Very little of that.  Very, very little of that. Sometimes if they find a partner that draws them to another community, then they might move.

Q: Did you grow up on your present farm?

Yes.

Q: At what age did you start working on the farm…whether tending the crops, milking the cows, or whatever? Did you get started at an early age, pretty much?

We all work together.  For right now, I mow and hay. My son is raking the hay right now. And I do some. But this is my main thing here, the furniture store. I am here most of the time. The farm is not a very active farm, as far as cows go or anything like that.  But you know, my Dad always had a farm and he milked cows.  And we plucked all our corn by hand and stuff, ever since I was like 6 or 7 years old. We all had our chores that we did.

Q: So your family was pretty much self-sufficient?

Yes.

Q: You basically made your clothes, you made or produced just about everything needed to live?

Yes.  I mean, more so then than now. In the past, we had to get the wheat out of the bin and grind it to make grain for cereal. Well, now we have our own eggs. We all have our eggs for the morning. But then we head to school or to the store for the day.

Q: Are you able to stay in touch with the news…with what is happening in this region, this country, and around the world?  For instance, are you aware of the Gulf of Mexico spill which is still spewing oil into the water as we speak? 

Oh, yes.  It’s under 1,000 feet, like a mile down, and after that I don’t know how many miles from the floor it is that they would have to go down to get that oil. 

Q: The news reports indicate that 200,000 gallons a day have been leaking directly into the water for the last 5 weeks.

I had a customer in here yesterday who said that there is program where animal fur is cut and sent down there to absorb some of the surface oil. It’s great that people are doing that, but I don’t know how much that is helping.

Q: Many sources are reporting that the devastation will impact the ecosystems and the beaches of Key West, Florida where our only coral reefs exist, all the way around the Gulf Coast states to the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico.  It will be interesting to see how businesses, particularly the energy industry, will respond to all this…a real test of values. Undoubtedly, this will stir up the debate about our environment and sustainable business practices. 

Against that backdrop, how do the Amish combine their values with their business interests?   How does your faith impact or guide the way you conduct business, treat your customers, and dictate the products that you make?  How do you use natural resources and  how are they replenished? In other words, is there a basic philosophy with respect to the way that the Amish conduct business?

I don’t understand.

Q: To put it another way, how do your operations affect people and the environment? It has always seemed to me that even without government regulations, there have always been two groups in this country that really had it right from the get-go with respect to the fair treatment of each other and natural resources: the Amish and the Native-American Indian.   

The Native Americans have always been my heroes.

Q: So if you were to speak for the Amish community, do you think that there is a distinct philosophy with respect to business, respect for the land, and respect for each other? Would you say there is a common thread?   For instance, it appears that with respect to your business, everything is hand-made by people you know – you, your brother Lamar, and maybe other members of your extended family. Trees are cut. Now one of the biggest, natural items that absorb carbon or greenhouse gases from the air, is trees. So once trees are taken down…

I love trees. And some people think that, “oh, you should not be cutting down those trees to do this….  You’re taking all the trees.”  But it’s very important to cut those trees, so they can regenerate.  I have woods and I think the level of education around here is totally different than what it was 25 years ago, you know, about managing a forest.

Q: What is the difference?

Now it is very professional.  The foresters in this area will come and help you manage the woods.  The local extension office has tons of literature which educates us.  And in terms of regeneration, I’ve planted over 10,000 trees, myself, on my farm. Lamar has planted about 30,000 trees, like the cherry tree and the oak tree. There are five different species of hardwood trees that need sunlight to regenerate. They will not regenerate in the shaded forest floor. The maple and some of the trees are not preferable.  So some trees need to come out. By maintaining the forest in this way makes it very, very productive.

Q: So in order for certain species to grow, other types of tree need to be cleared?

Walnut, cherry, and oak. These are trees that need to have sunlight to regenerate.

Q:  Right. So this is important to you to replant in terms of offsetting what has been taken?

It’s very important to me. And it’s important to customers or people who have woods.  Some people who have woods who are not Amish, won’t let anyone cut down trees. They believe letting nature take care of itself. And they’ve got the ugliest woods. God put us here to take care of the Earth.  What we need to do is to educate ourselves and read up on material that tells us how to best do this … educate ourselves on what it takes to maintain the Earth, not just let it go. I had another customer who owns property down in Kentucky.  The property has a big pond and he wants to build a cabin and to plant trees. I told him to get trees from the state; they’ve got beautiful trees, very healthy, great trees, at great prices. I told him I have phone numbers of people who could plant them for him quickly and spray right behind the tree so the tree has a good chance to grow. But he said, “but that’s not right to use a spray.”  And I said that as long as you don’t abuse it, its practical. I told him, “don’t even plant trees; don’t even go in there and plant them because it’s going to be a waste of your money. You’re so critical if you don’t want to spray them; you might as well save your money and do nothing with them.”  These new trees need to be taken care of for at least the first 2 years.  That gives them a chance to grow. There are extremists who want nothing to do with any sprays; nothing to do with any chemicals. Some chemicals are useful if they are not abused, but very carefully used. You have to mix them in the right amounts.

Q: Is this to confine the chemical to the tree rather than taking a chance on it being washed away?

That’s very true. I’ve got a pond.  I love my pond.  And I take a great interest in it. I attended a seminar a couple years ago held by the Purdue University extension offices.  They had a huge crowd of people here. Part of the reason we had that seminar was because in this area there are some people who have ponds and who want to go buy chemicals to put into the water.  And that is very, very wrong, I guess.

Q: Why do they want to chemicals into the water?

To control the weeds, the algae. And they can get it for a lot cheaper, those types of chemicals. But it’s not made to break down in the water.  They could buy something that has the same ingredients to put in water and it’s made to be put in the water to control the algae and to keep the pond healthy. It also will not kill the fish. It’s formulated differently. And one is made for water and one is made for land. And these products should only be used for what they were made for. If you’re supposed to buy chemicals from the co-op that’s made for water, then just apply them very minimally. You can go and swim in it the next day; you can use the water for irrigating and you can drink it safely. The chemicals made for land will not break down. They are formulated differently; they won’t break down if they’re not made for water. They will be in there for a long time. So I was hoping the extension people would educate the locals as to these differences in uses to do what is right and good.

Q: Is there a good relationship between the locals and the people at the Purdue extension?

Yes. Much more than it used to be. A lot more.

Q: Is there somewhat of a mutual education between the two groups?

Yeah. People do things because it has always been done that way. Grandma did it because Great Grandma did it. But much is changing.  For instance, I have fruit trees – peach, apple, and pear – that I take a lot of interest maintaining them.  I have tons of books to educate myself on the right way to grow and keep them healthy without hurting the land or water or anything else. I think everyone should want to do everything possible to educate themselves. What does it take to make a nice healthy meal?  I’ve read a lot on organic farming.

Q: Do a lot of people follow your example? Before they jump into things, do they educate themselves fully with respect to what they are doing, to what they are growing?

Oh, yeah. I know a guy who was planting about 50 to 60 peach trees to help earn part of his income. And he’s done well. He knows what it takes to grow healthy trees.

Q: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

There are nine of us. Lamar and I are the only ones who manage this store.

Q:  Where do you fit in, in terms of age?

Right in the middle. My brother is younger; he’s next to the youngest one.

Q: And do they all live in this area?

All except one sister.  She married a guy and they live in Shipshewana.

Q: Which is close by?

About 30 miles away.

Q: I would imagine that you have quite a few cousins?

Oh, yeah.

Q: How many children do you have?

Seven.

Q: How do they split in terms of gender?

We had three and three and then on January 4, we had another boy.

Q: So let’s get back to the subject of your business.  Is the furniture business your primary way of earning a living to support your family? And does the farm basically allow you to be self-sustaining to a certain degree?  

Yes.

Q: When you say you educate yourself with respect to your business interests, would you say that this is what you’re teaching your children as they grow up —doing things correctly and making sure you’ve got all the facts before beginning a project or starting a business? Is that something that was passed down to you that you will pass on to your children?

Yes.  My dad was very technical, very precise with everything he did. He raised hogs and farmed on a smaller scale, but everything counted. Every detail mattered. And I’m not as bad as he was.  But in those days, everything had to matter.

Q: When you say the word “technical,” what comes to mind are computers.

No.  It’s just how he fed them, how he raised his corn…he was never wasteful. He was very careful to use everything available to him.

Q: So there was very little waste?

Right. There was just no waste. There is quite a bit more waste for me than there was for him. With this hogs, he would go to a great extent to make sure that, in their feeders, they didn’t push out any of the feed.  There was just no waste.

Q: Are you business partners with your brother Lamar in running this store?  Do you alternate your time here?

We are both here most of the time during the week. Today he is delivering store shipments. So he’s on the road. Often one can take off liberally.  Today he left at 2:00 and went home.

Q: So as a family business, do all family members contribute in some way?

Oh, yeah.  My mom is out here about every morning, cleaning. I bought the farm from my parents and my mom still lives in the other house on the farm and she’s out here every morning.

Q: Is there formal business education available in this region? Are your kids attending regular public schools?

Parochial.

Q: And after high school, do any attend college?

They do not attend high school.

Q: So they complete up to what grade?

The eighth grade.

Q: And then at that point are they recruited into the family business?

They try to find something, some work to do. It’s harder than it used to be. When I was out of school I was more at liberty; there were no strict rules. Now you have to be very careful. I worked down the road at the hardware shop and ran a machine. And that was through the winter.  Then during the summer, I did construction work. Then I worked a couple different jobs.

Q: When you said something could be found for a son, what is done for a daughter? How would you say that females, in the Amish community, factor in as business owners, operators, or entrepreneurs?

Well, like my daughter.  She’s cut out to do a little bit of this and that; I’m hoping to teach her this trade. And sometimes, my son, who is baling hay today, is given jobs in the morning to do for the day. And one of the girls here teaches at the parochial school.

Q: So women generally function as assistants or as teachers outside the home?

Do they run their own businesses? One man who makes my tables has a wife who is very active … very, very active in the business. Actually, she kind of started it. She actually started a business of making crafts, handling crafts, and a lot of people who make crafts brought them there. She was a distributer. But it got too much for her and she sold the business to her brother-in-law, finally.

Q: So it’s not frowned upon for a woman to run her own business?

She is usually the homemaker.

Q: Do you see that role changing at all?

Not much. I mean, they might have their own businesses at home; this is meant for them to be active somewhat.  But the housewife is very much encouraged. It is the family as a whole that is encouraged to run their own business.

Q: So the family unit is really….

Strong.

Q: So is the family a very big cog in the wheel, with the wheel being the community?

Oh, yes. And it’s changed a lot. Years ago, the primary businesses were in farming and construction.  Within the last 15 years, it’s more in furniture. And the way we do business has really changed a lot. Ten years ago hardly anybody had voicemail. And now you need it to run a business.

Q: You have a website, too?

A member of our local Chamber of Commerce asked me for some pictures so I gave him some and they put up that website.

Q: It certainly seems to help with name recognition and to draw in customers. Again, with respect to your business philosophy… the family unit, you said, is being directed away from agri-business and heading into furniture-making.  Is that an accurate assessment, not just here, but with respect to the Amish communities in Pennsylvania and Ohio?

You know, Pennsylvania is not much into the making of fine furniture; those communities are more into crafts.  The Ohio communities are furniture makers and they are way ahead of this community. But all of that is changing. This area is known for top quality, best product, best price. The prices here are much better than in Ohio. They have much of the furniture items shipped and dispense it locally, but that has also changed the last 5 years or so. It’s very competitive. There’s more of a demand in Ohio because there’s a larger community.

Q: So you foresee your children and your brother’s children eventually taking over this business?

Definitely, yes. Ultimately that’s usually what happens. There is a home-based business which will be handed down.

Q: And is the primary language in this industry English?

English is our second language; we don’t speak English at home. It’s a Pennsylvania Dutch type of dialect. Not a lot of people know Pennsylvania Dutch who live outside the community. It’s a form of a High German dialect. We get customers from Germany and I can usually understand them.

Q: I would imagine it’s also a great way of talking about customers who give you a hard time!

[ Laughs]. The Pennsylvania Dutch has more English mixed in with it.  And it gets worse with time. But we read the High German.

Q: Are your children taught languages as part of their formal education?

The Pennsylvania Dutch just comes naturally as it is spoken in the house. It was difficult for our oldest son to speak anything else because he didn’t really have any playmates or somebody who took special efforts to teach him, even during the 3 or 4 years he went to a public school.

Q: So your children do attend public schools?

Yes, there’s a fair amount who go. We encourage our own schools, but it’s more expensive to do this.

Q: And the public schools are free, right?

Yes, but it’s the parochial schools that we try to support.

Q:    And that is too great of an expense?

Yes, but we do pay some fees at the public schools, so it’s not totally free.

Q: But then the formal education stops after the eighth grade? And do the children ever express the desire to go on to high school and ultimately to college?  Is that a topic that is ever discussed openly?

Actually, I know one that did.

Q: But is that frowned upon?

Yeah, somewhat, it is. That has changed somewhat too, going to school.

Q: Especially in light of this community’s connection with Purdue University.  With such exposure, I am wondering if those ties spark any interest with the children who may wish to further their education. You said that Purdue is conducting more seminars in the area and that the locals are trusting the information that they are being given. With this trust and increasing exposure, I’m wondering if 10 years down the road, they may be more apt to want to go to college?

Yes, but that would be frowned upon. If that person is a member of the church, that wouldn’t be allowed, going to college. But there are other ways to educate them at home, with the books and the literature and everything that’s available.

Q: So as a member of the church and as a businessman, if you were to say, “I’ve got this great business. I want to learn more about accounting, finance, and law so I’m going to enroll in a Purdue extension class.” Would the church frown upon that?

Now what would that consist of?

Q: Basically, you would first have to obtain the equivalent of a high school degree before you apply to college.

What do you call that?

Q: A “GED.”

Yeah, people do that sometimes.

Q: But if you wanted to go further… I mean, I don’t know if you handle your own accounting needs or prepare your own taxes or if you delegatethat to anyone else.

Actually, there’s an Amish guy who does all the accounting for the community. He’s very professional. And he works a lot with lawyers.  And actually, we have our own bank, too. We call it Amish Bank or AMMF for Amish Mutual Mortgage Fund. And he’s the treasurer of that, and every customer of that bank is Amish.

Q: Did he go to college?

No. He was a teacher at our own school for 15 years. The lawyers he works with are pretty close with Amish community, too. And sometimes they conduct seminars in the community on everything from truck ownership to banking.

Q: So the emphasis is on education.  It’s just where it is conducted, who is doing the teaching, and what is being taught and all of that is pretty much locally determined?

Right.

Q: But let’s say if you did have a child who wanted to leave the community, whether he or she wanted to pursue a more formal education or choose a different career, or simply explore new places. How would that affect the family unit and the Amish community in general?

Well, then, they wouldn’t be Amish to do that. If I’m a member of the Amish church I’d abide by our rules. I’m 100% comfortable with everyone we have.  But, if I’m a member, if I joined the church then I should abide by our rules. And we don’t believe that our rules are right that we have to follow these to get up to heaven. They just make it easier for us to live a humble life. We are always preaching, Jesus Christ is our Savior, he’s the one … but we need our rules to keep our guidelines.

Q: And if somebody were to leave the Amish church, who was a relative, would that person then, basically be shunned?

I think all of that is often misunderstood. Is it, yes, until they are taken up by another church, with good standing with another church. But then it’s kind of free to each individual to how they want to do that; if they want to still shun them or not if they feel comfortable. But usually after they go to another church, with standing in the church, and they usually have been there about a year, and then that could be accepted. But usually, we just think the child should stay with what they were taught … I mean that’s Scripture.

Q: Others would advocate that whatever faith, religion, or philosophy one follows, as long as that makes the person a better person, then it should be welcome.  

Right and we’ve with seven children everyday I think about the future. What I want depends on my own knowledge, and I trust the Lord. I mean I want to do what I can to keep them on a narrow, straight path….

Q: But many believe that at a certain point you have to let go.

Right, it’s a higher power, it not something that we can control.

Q: But you don’t love them any less.

Right. That is very important.

Q: Is the Amish bank a common institution within the Amish communities of the United States? For instance, would this be similar to the one in the nearby Shipshewana community?

No, that’s different. They have their own bank. And we make loans … I cannot loan money from that bank for business, but for first time homebuyers; it’s a type of direct help to the community. And that is strictly for first-time homebuyers.  Like everyone else, they have to fill out an application and get an appraisal just like any other bank would do. But you know, if the bank has excess money, then there will be changes in the rules. That is, if we have more money than we need than we would consider making loans to second-time buyers or maybe help someone start up or maintain a business.

Q: Do you have to be a member of the Amish church, to basically be a banker, or a customer at the bank?

Actually, there are five different banks here in Nappanee that the Amish money is deposited into 3 or 4 of these.

Q: So they pool their money?

Yes. And people invest.  The accumulated money is then put into the Amish bank … it is a non-profit thing. The interest that we then charge to borrowers is about ¾ percent higher than what the bank gives.  If I put my money in there, extra money, the interest I get is ¾% less than what the borrower has to pay.

Q: And have there been late payments, foreclosures, defaults on bank notes … is that fairly rare?

It is. It’s very rare.

Q: And would happen if, for instance, I were Amish, and I came to you to apply for a loan to build first home.  My loan application is approved.  Let’s say that I have been paying the principal and interest on the note each month without interruption and then all of a sudden, I run into problems with my business or experience a catastrophic illness or something of that unforeseen nature where I am at least temporarily unable to make the payments. Would you say that the members of the church/community would come together and help me so I wouldn’t go into default?

Right. There’s a lot of help. It’s the church’s responsibility to help. But once in a while, there’s somebody that’s, um… careless. But that happens very seldom. And once a year, those in charge of the Amish deposits have a meeting. And all of the borrowers and the people lending are invited and they talk.  For instance, it might be explained that if the borrower pays an extra $50 a month or more towards the principal, what he would gain. He writes it all down and encourages other people to get out of debt sooner.

Q: Right. To keep on top of it.

Yes. They’re very educated about this.

Q: Are credit cards used?

They’re used.

Q: I have seen that they have been accepted by some Amish businesses, but do people in the church use them as well?

Yes.

Q: Are there seminars offered about how not to abuse using this type of credit?

You don’t hear much of that. I don’t have a credit card. All I have is a bank card, a debit card, and the money comes straight out of my checking.

Q: How about catastrophic illnesses, general healthcare needs? Are those community-based as well?

It is. If I have an illness, if I can pay it, I should pay it myself. But if the amount is something I can’t pay all at once, the minister will first find out what you have and what you can pay. And then if someone wants help, the minister will direct that person to the one in need and will send these pleas for help to all the church ministries.

Q: Is there any bartering? For instance, would you trade furniture for other services that you might need?

Not much.  Usually there’s basically a member of the church who can do what you need. Years ago, it probably was a lot like that, during the Depression.

Q: What if you need a specific piece of farm equipment and can’t afford to buy it?  Is there sharing at least between members of the Amish community?

Oh, yeah. That’s part of the neighborhood. There’s a lot of that.  For instance, my neighbor and I actually jointly own our hay equipment. But he has things that I don’t have that he lets me use and I have things that he uses.

Q: Is this type of sharing part of the rules that govern your lives? And as time moves on, is this also something that is changing?

Yes.

Q: And does technology play a role?

It’s discouraged, you know. But it depends on the community as to what is allowed.

Q: Do you have a phone at home?

No. Outside the store we have a phone in a little building, a four by four building. There’s just a phone in there. And if I’m out there making a call, I might answer a call.

Q: But you don’t carry around a cell phone?

No. But, you know, there are Amish who do.

Q: Now, is that breaking rules?

There’s one in Shipshewana; there’s only one church. And as I mentioned there are church districts which has their own rules. And ours is maybe a mile square. The church district is just big enough that we can worship at our homes. If it gets too big, it gets split in the middle and then they have two districts. And the districts try to stay somewhat within the same rules, the same guidelines.

Q: So if you wanted to get a cell phone, and it’s against the rules, but you felt your business needed it, would you put it in your pocket so nobody sees it and hope it doesn’t ring? … Like in the middle of the service?

More of that is surfacing. There are Amish in pretty big businesses who are made the bosses. So the company gives them a cell phone. And sometimes that gets taken home. Then it can create some issues.  But it depends upon what district you’re in.  But “keep it at work and don’t take it home,” is probably more of what the church would say.

Q: Are the rules changing with respect to allowable forms of transportation?

For deliveries and everything? We hire outside the community to make our deliveries, somebody else who does that for a living.

Right. And I agree with that. But our reason is different. It’s more of a community thing.  If we all had our own cars, we’d all be on our own way. We’d be all over. And it’s more of preserving the community.

Q: One of our student groups has been working in Africa, drilling wells and pumping water using wind and solar power.  I understand that most homes do not use electricity.  What forms of energy are used?

There are a lot of Amish homes that do it that way.

Q: How do your business practices mesh with the basic tenets of your faith? 

Honesty and fairness. If you do everything to the glory and honor of God, and if something goes well, it’s not because of something that I did. It’s just my trust in the Lord, that’s the main thing. It is not something that I do that makes it something successful. It took the Lord to bless the business.

Q: But in conducting business, actually making the sale, are there certain rules that steam from your faith that guide you in how you conduct business, in terms of how you sell, how you price, the quality of the item made? You look at the amount of effort and money that went into making a certain piece of furniture when you price an item. Are there, for instance, different prices for some people as opposed to other customers, or is the pricing the same across the board?

If my brother comes in, he might get 10% off or so. I buy everything that is sold from this store.  The people who make the items might base their prices upon how many hours their family spent making it.  When I get the product and I have to pay so much. But then it goes to my finish shop and I have to pay another person to have it finished.  Then once a week my trucker brings the items over. Then I pay him about $100 dollars to deliver my load of furniture here.  So by taking into account all of that, I then must figure out how much I have to charge per piece. I think I ask for very, very fair prices. Especially compared to other stores that sell these products all over the states that come and buy from the same builders that I do.

Q: Do they then jack-up the prices?

There is a suggested retail price, but theirs is usually higher than what I charge.

Q: Do you like what you do? Do you feel like you are adding something of substance to your community or even to the world for that matter?

Yeah, absolutely. Yes I do. We’ve had people here who’ve wanted us to sell China furniture.

Q: Furniture made in China and shipped and sold here?

I think that is very wrong. We need to support the community, the natural resources, you know, what’s locally made. And pride in what I have, you know. I know that if somebody buys a table set, they will like it. Most of my customers, once they start buying this type of furniture, I know they’re going to come back. They love it. A lot of our customers, they come back and I know what they like, what they’ll get. I know it’s a good product and I have to take pride in what I sold to them. I feel good about selling this furniture.

Q: Do you and your brother Lamar make any of this furniture?

I don’t.

Q: You don’t. But you can?

That’s an issue that is kind of hard to explain, but a lot of people ask me, well what do you do? What do I make? But I don’t make any of these pieces. There have been some Amish shops that used to build some furniture and then they would sell it but also buy items from other builders.  But they could not compete. Let’s see…I’m a table builder, I used to make tables, and now I started my store and I buy my chairs from somewhere else but I still like making tables. But I cannot make my tables and do this too. I could maybe make two or three a week. The next guy down the road, he just makes tables and he does not work with the customer. He makes a whole bunch of them. And I can go buy my tables from him and save a lot of money. And that’s what he specializes in; he does it over and over, but he does not work with the customer. If you walk into Norm’sshop, the one who makes the tables, he might take time to say this is what I do. He doesn’t have a showroom. He doesn’t finish his products. So if you said “I’d like to buy a table from you,” he’d say, “No, I can’t. I just sell my products to different stores around here.” And that way he’s just concentrating on the production part of it. Another one produces the chairs and another one just finishes the products.

Q: So is there a good relationship with these other Amish people you work with?

Yeah, there is. And that’s a good part about this.  For instance, Noah, someone I’ve known for years who’s about my age, makes TV stands, and bookcases.  I’ve known him since I was a little boy. I also know his brother, very well. He makes bedroom furniture. I’ve known that family for years.  It’s a personal connection with them.

Q: Knowing that you’re supporting the community — that has to feel good.  It seems like one giant partnership. Is that a fair statement?

We have quite a few of our Amish friends who come in and buy. And if somebody Amish comes in, they buy the things that they can afford. We try to help, you know. But it’s a fair price. And you’d think the Amish wouldn’t come buy from me because they have their own, but they do. They come in and buy unless they have a father or son or a close relative who does this.  Like my brother, he specializes in kitchen cabinets. High-end kitchen cabinets. But, I mean, we’ve made a bedroom set for his daughter already. And you know, it’s a fair price. Even if he does woodworking.

Q: We talked about how your father didn’t waste at all. And you mentioned that the Native American Indians were your heroes … why?

Living off the land…respecting the land. And living in a very spiritual way. We know that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior who guides what we do. And Tecumseh, he was very spiritual guy. Very, very spiritual. There are those similarities.